Chapter 14 - Living Buddha Liansheng on Controversial Issues

An interview at the Liansheng Broadcasting Station

Editors note: This is an interview with Living Buddha Liansheng for the special program Liansheng (Lotus Sound) at the Liansheng Broadcasting Station, on June 30th, 1993, by reporters Xu Yaqi and Tai Zhiyuan.

Xu: Warm welcome to our program Liansheng . I'm Xu Yaqi.

Tai: I'm Tai Zhiyuan. I'm very happy indeed today to chair this program with a Miss Yuan (my wife). First of all, let me say "Hello" to all cultivators and good people from all corners of the world.

Xu: And today our studio is radiating golden light.

Tai: I would say the studio is filled up with golden light and auspicious air.

But please don't take me wrong. It's not the mirror man who is coming. It's our Living Buddha Liansheng, our Vajra Master, who is coming today. Now, Living Buddha Liansheng is right here with us today.

Xu: Welcome to Living Buddha Liansheng, the founder of our True Buddha School.

Tai: Grand Master's presence brings luster to our studio. Okay, so much for our introduction.

Xu: Now, Grand Master Lu will give all of you his greetings.

Lu: Hello, everyone!

Xu: That's a very simple, but very powerful greeting! Our listeners have been looking forward to the arrival of this day. They have asked again and again, Why can't we hear the Grand Master's voice? We get lots of letters and telephone calls inquiring about this. At last, we heard his voice. Grand Master Lu has made a special trip back home and will preside over a service ceremony for us as well. Besides, an initiation ceremony will be held on July 7th for our Lei Zang Temple. Today, Grand Master Lu is with us. What is he going to talk about? Well, I'm sure our audience is fairly familiar with Grand Master Lu's usual Dharma talks either from books or from videos. However, they have not had a chance to listen to Grand Master Lu on some controversial issues on a public occasion....

Tai: To hear him in person, to listen to his voice.

Xu: Right.

Tai: Today we are going to discuss some controversial topics.

Xu: So, if our questions sound a bit offensive....

Lu: They won't.

Xu: We represent the people who are not well informed. Some people know a little bit about the early years of the Living Buddha's life; they know that he had some supernatural powers then. But the right views of Buddhist believers do not include supernatural powers . For that reason, some of them tend to believe that our Grand Master is a "big devil".

Tai: When we say that, we hope Grand Master Lu helps us to overcome the karmic hindrance resulting from it.

Lu: Amida Buddha!

Xu: Could we ask our Grand Master to tell us how you look at it, or say something about the origin of this "big devil", or how it came into being?

Distinction between Supernatural Powers and Devils

Lu: Ordinary people in the Saha world do not really understand what supernatural power means. They tend to think that supernatural powers require great Dharma power since there are very few people in the world who possess supernatural powers. This is because this is the period of the last and decadent Dharma . This period of time is characterized by the shortage of people with supernatural powers. If you happen to display such powers, the ordinary man would tend to believe that you are a devil.

Hence the name "big devil" gradually came into use. As a matter of fact, when Sakyamuni Buddha was living in this world, he also displayed such powers. In reading the scriptures, we often come across many, many manifestations of such powers, such as radiation of light and the shaking of the ground. As soon as Sakyamuni Buddha was born, he could speak and he walked seven steps; pointing to heaven with one hand and earth with the other, he declared, I am alone the most revered in heaven and on earth! So he displayed supernatural powers from the day of birth - walking, moving, speaking!

What about myself! I didn t show off my supernatural powers. I just said, What do you want to pray for? I'll help you to pray for it! When I said that, the Buddha’s power was invoked. So supernatural powers are actually the Buddha’s Dharma power, the strengths of the Buddha and Tathagata. Sometimes there is also some force/energy of devils or some force/energy of gods . It may not be the Buddha’s power only! As long as you follow the right Dharma, however, your supernatural powers are also on the right track. Because you display such great strengths and people do not usually possess such powers, some people would deliberately say,

"You have these miraculous powers because you are a "big devil"! Following this logic, those without such powers would be Buddhas! What strange logic then! This reasoning is wrong, of course".

As long as you practise the right teachings, your power will also be right. As spiritual cultivators, this is the most we can say! People from the outside can criticize me as a "big devil", but their criticism is very superficial since we follow the right Dharma, not the devil's tricks.

They never criticize our "True Buddha Tantric Dharma", because our "True Buddha Tantric Dharma" is the Buddha's Dharma. The powers generated from the "True Buddha Tantric Dharma" are of course right powers, not heretical powers! This is an important point all listeners should be clear about.

Xu: So this "big devil" is a label imposed on the Grand Master by some people out of ignorance.

Tai: But this is slandering the Buddha ! This is quite serious. One has to watch what he says!

Xu: You are right. Will it have serious consequences on those who said it?

Lu: Well, you see, there are many things in the world that are not as clear cut as black and white. Many people can see only the surface of things.

Those who can see the inside of things will not go in for slandering. In other words, they have to know whether the "True Buddha Tantric Dharma" is "genuine" or "false" or whether it is the "Buddha's" Dharma or the "devil's" tricks. They have to prove from the process of my cultivation, from my books, from the teachings I follow, that there is the "devil's" force inside before they can say I am a "big devil". If they cannot prove that it the "devil's" force, then it is the "Buddha's" power. It is as simple as that! I hope our listeners will distinguish them very carefully.

Xu: There are also some people among our listeners who say this, "The Living Buddha Liansheng in his early years was fairly good. The present Living Buddha Liansheng is very different from the previous one!" They judge the Grand Master by the houses he lives in, by the huge amount of money from the offerings his disciples make, by the expensive cars he drives and famous brand watches he wears. Could we ask the Grand Master to explain to us, "Does a cultivator have to engage in ascetic practices?" This impression leads to misunderstanding sometimes among the laymen.

Natural Cultivation Is not Pleasure-seeking.

Lu: Okay. In this respect, I behave completely naturally. By "natural", I mean to say "Yes" if I have something and "No" if I don t. "Natural" also means that when people make offerings to me, I do not like to reject them, and that when they do not make any offerings to me, I do not force them.

Sheng-yen Lu was once very poor, penniless at times, with no money for a bus fare. Now things have changed. As people say, "The poor can become rich" and "The rich can become poor". My opinion is this, A cultivator does not have to go in for ascetic practices. Buddha Sakyamuni engaged in ascetic practices for six years in snow mountains. He believed that it was not the ultimate truth that one could get his mind liberated by inflicting sufferings upon his body. The truth is that your body has to be taken good care of so that you can practise diligently. If the body is very weak, what practice is there to speak of? When your body is too weak, you have to give up practising. So in the end the Buddha had to give up his ascetic ways. So we say spiritual cultivation does not take asceticism as a prerequisite. Natural cultivation is the best.

Some people say that my houses are very beautiful and luxurious, my cars are the most expensive, Rolls Royce , my watch is Rolex gold watch, and I wear a diamond ring, among many other luxuries. In fact, I am not enjoying myself. Why do I say this? You see, the best houses are in the Rainbow Villa. But I don't live in the Villa. That is a place for practice for everybody. It s a center for secluded practice/Retreat and for Dharma talks. People say I have the best car; Rolls Royce is the best car in the world. But I can give it up. I have sold my Rolls Royce and bought an ordinary car. So the criticism about cars does not hold now. What about the gold watch? I have also sold it for charity, to a disciple from Hong Kong.

Xu: Well, he may offer you another watch!

Lu: (Laughing) That’s right. I told him that I had sold him my Rolex watch for charity and he could use the money for charity. He was also wearing a Rolex watch. He had been wearing it for over twenty years. I said to him, You can make an offer of that watch to me! (laughter). Now you are wearing the best watch, you can give me that worn-out, twenty-year-old watch of yours! The watch I am now wearing is the old watch he had been wearing for more than twenty years. What else can you say when you know that I am wearing a worn-out watch from my disciples! One word about the gold ring on my finger. I have to wear it; it was given to me by my root Guru Thubten Thaerchi. Wearing it, I can often think of my root Guru. And look at my clothes....

Tai: You were very careless to have burnt a hole in here!

Lu: I wear ragged clothes.

Xu: I am a witness for that!

Lu: I wear ragged clothes. There is a big hole here; it was burnt by incense. A button is missing. I have been wearing this jacket for five or six years. Altogether I have three sets of lama robes, no other monk robes. Such is my life - simple food, simple clothing, simple housing and simple transportation! On the outside, everything looks magnificent! I can have anything; I can give up everything. It s true that I get many red paper envelopes (money as offerings). But I use the money to build Lei Zang Temples! The Bodhi Lei Zang Temple in Vancouver was funded by myself, without one dollar of donation. The True Buddha Newspaper Building in Vancouver is also built with my own money, without donation, without charity. I often do such things with my own money. All the money I get is spent on worthy Bodhi causes. I have no time for comfort or luxury! As you can see, ever since I arrived in Taiwan, I’ve been busy till this moment. I don t even have time to have a stroll in the street. I have no time to spend any money! What's the use for me to have that much money? It s mostly spent on Bodhi causes. So much for my simple explanation.

Xu: So we often see only the superficial side of things. In fact this cause of Buddhism is quite hard. The Grand Master has to visit many temples everyday and give instructions to the disciples. On top of that, some disciples like you (referring to Tai) also trouble the Grand Master with treating illnesses....

Tai: Yes. When I get a pain from whatever I eat, I have to ask the Grand Master what I should do!

Xu: Grand Master Lu has so many things to attend to everyday. On the surface, he has big houses and expensive cars, but in fact he makes no use of them. Please don’t get him wrong! Some people, however, are not as lucky as we are. We can come into direct contact with the Grand Master.

There are two million disciples in the True Buddha School. Some of them cannot come into personal contact with you, Grand Master. Are they different in any way from those who are in contact with you? Can the lack of contact lead to misunderstanding? Could you tell us what those disciples should do who have no way to contact you personally?

Tai: That is to say, How can one keep his belief firm?

Rely on Your Root Guru

Lu: The most important thing for students of Vajrayana Buddhism is to rely on their Root Guru. Since you have taken refuge in your Root Guru, you have to see his strong points only. You are not supposed to notice his shortcomings. If you concentrate on his shortcomings, they can become very serious. The more serious they appear, the more complicated your mind will get. Then you will find it difficult to accept his instructions, you will not show respect to your Guru, and you will pay no attention to his Tantric teachings. That way, you will naturally achieve nothing! In Esoteric Buddhism, it is extremely important to respect one's Guru and pay attention to his teachings. After you have taken refuge in the Tantric School, you have to see your Guru's strong points, try hard to learn his strong points and learn the Tantric teachings he hands down. Relying on his lineage and practising very diligently, you will get yogic responses and your belief will remain firm. Many disciples have no personal contact with me and have no chance to see me. But you can read my books, watch my video or listen to my cassettes, as my Dharma talks are often recorded or video-taped. In this way, you can also learn about how I conduct myself in this world! As a matter of fact, the way I conduct myself does not have a lot to do with the Tantric teachings. Don't you agree? In learning Buddhism, you are to learn the strong points in Buddhism, and the strong points of your Guru! Speaking of weak points, who doesn’t have a few weak points under heaven? Everyone does! Since everyone has weaknesses, what good does it do you if you focus on others’ weaknesses? If you do that, you lose your respect for them and you no longer treasure the Dharma.

When you don't value the Dharma, you will achieve nothing in practising it. In the end, this will only do you harm. So after you have taken refuge in a master, you should rely on him your whole life, learn from his strong points, and learn his valuable secret teachings. In this way, with diligent practice, you are sure to achieve realization. This is what all sutras tell us about Buddhism. When the Buddha was living in this world, many people saw that there were women who attacked the Buddha for misconduct and for that reason they lost their confidence in the Buddha. What a pity! If when Sakyamuni was here, you were his contemporary and you didn t treasure the chance, you will never treasure anything!

Xu: The same is true with us. We must treasure this chance and practise diligently, particularly those we mentioned just now who were guilty of slandering acts. There is another point, Grand Master, which you also mentioned in your books, that is ..., you seem to be never free from love affairs with some female disciples. Some women really seem to be constant source of trouble. Could the Grand Master explain how this happened?

Never Give up a Single Sentient Being!

Lu: All right. When the Buddha was living in this world, he also had a few stories concerning women. The first woman was Zhan Zhe as you probably know. One day when the Buddha was lecturing on the Dharma to his disciples, the young girl Zhan Zhe stood up and said to the Buddha, "Your lecture is wonderful, but what shall I do with the baby in my belly?" Buddha Sakyamuni just sat there, without saying a word. All the disciples present were greatly shocked. How was it that a girl stood up saying the baby in her belly was by Buddha Sakyamuni? This was because some people were trying to frame the Buddha up. Another girl was named Suntoly who died in the dustbin beside a temple. This story spread far and wide which inflicted unrighted wrongs upon five hundred arhats, ten major disciples and Buddha Sakyamuni. These are the stories to show that the Buddha was "seldom free from love affairs" among many, many others.

The key point is to guard against women. If you want to discredit a cultivator, the best method is to use a female. If you say I was also "never free from love affairs", it was probably true when I was young. When I was a youngster, I wasn t quite disciplined as I had not started my cultivation. To tell the truth, I also had my youthful years when I ran after pretty girls and pretty girls ran after me. Now I have been practising for years and got to know what is right and what is wrong. It's true that some female disciples run after me. The reason is obvious: it seems that I have a lot of money and I am very famous, not yet too old.

There are also other female disciples whose respect for me gradually transformed into a kind of love. My attitude towards these disciples is to try hard to lead them into the study of the Dharma and put down their lust. When putting down their desire, I try not to reject them; if you reject a girl, she will be angry.

Xu: I said just now that females are a constant source of trouble. It seems that even Buddha Sakyamuni was reluctant to convert female sentient beings. Is the Grand Master faced with the same situation?

Lu: I have said this before. After I was framed up several times - in fact once is enough - I did think of giving up.... Why should I take the trouble - since she had done this, why should I try so hard to convert her? I have made the vow that I would not give up a single sentient being.

Females are also sentient beings. If you say males and females are equal, you simply cannot convert only males and not females! If you are to convert her, you cannot reject her. So when she falls in love with you, you have to put up with it quietly. If you bring the matter to light and say that you treat her as any other disciples, she will be very angry. I am at a loss what to do when she is angry. I didn t handle such things very well and as a result got myself into one dispute after another. But to tell the truth, I never touched any of them. I am an innocent person.

Xu: It shows how great our master/Root Guru are - not giving up a single sentient being. I hope that we female listeners will practise even harder after this.

Tai: I have a question here. I often wander from place to place as an artist. I also chair programs. There are believers of Buddhism among actors and actresses. Once one person asked me, "Do you believe in Buddhism, Mr. Tai?" I answered, "Of course!" He asked, "Who is your Root Guru then?" I replied, "Our Vajra Master Sheng-yen Lu!" He muttered, "Mu..." that is...hinting some veiled criticism. I asked, "Do you have any criticism against our school?" "No. I dare not make any criticism of any school. If I do that, I will be slandering the Buddha". I asked him, "Who is your master?" He replied, "My master is so and so". I said, "Okay! I will go and pay respect to your master and get to know him. Will you do the same to my master?" He again muttered, "Mu, oh..., it is...". Isn't it strange that I am ready to prostrate before his master and he wouldn t do the same before my master? He often asked me, "Do you know that your master says he is a Buddha?" I replied, "Yes. He is of course a Buddha, as his nature and mind have transformed into a Buddha s nature and mind. We respect him as a Living Buddha". He would say, "The Buddha said that after his extinction, there would not be any Buddha; if a Buddha appeared, it must be the work of some devil or what not". Then he produced a copy of Surangama Sutra and asked me, "Have you read Surangama Sutra, Mr. Tai?" I was embarrassed, "Sorry, no. I had not read it. I know my master teaches me the Dharma and asks me to practise every day. I am very happy and comfortable with my practice. Are you very happy?" He asnwered, "No, not very happy at all!" He was always looking worried and distressed. I asked him, "Would you like to get to know my master?" He would say, "Well, you see.... Let’s stop here. I don t want to listen. I won't ask you any questions...". We would like to ask our Grand Master if that is the correct attitude of a believer of Buddhism.

No One Forbids You to Become a Buddha

Lu: Well, there is some distinction between a self-appointed Buddha and a Buddha by realization. When the Buddha got enlightened, he realized that all sentient beings have the nature of a Buddha, which is to say that all sentient beings were originally Buddhas to begin with; they are called Buddhas by nature . So in theory, each and every sentient being is a Buddha. But because he is confused , he is now a sentient being. When he is enlightened, he will be a Buddha again. So all we have to do is to become Buddhas by getting out of the "confusion" and into "realization".

To recapture what we have said, each sentient being was a Buddha, but because he was confused, he has become a sentient being; if he practises very hard, he can become a real Buddha again. This is the definition of "Buddha". So we sentient beings should not look down upon ourselves since we are all Buddhas.

What about myself? I have called myself a Buddha because I have become enlightened. That is to say, my Buddha nature has appeared, so that I can call myself a Buddha. I understand the Buddha's theories, I have merged myself into the Buddha's truths and I can teach the Buddha's wisdom to everybody. Since the Buddha's nirvana, many people believe that the next Buddha will be Bodhisattva Maitreya. There was a popular legend saying that there will be no Buddha appearing between Buddha Sakyamuni and Buddha Maitreya. This period is called the "Buddhaless world". In fact, things are not like this. What kind of Buddha will Buddha Maitreya be? He will be a "common-karma Buddha", which means he will be the leader of all believers in the Saha world, empowered by Sakyamuni.

In the period between these two Buddhas, private persons are not forbidden to become Buddhas. That is, those private cultivators who have achieved realization in their practice can still become Buddhas. Nowhere it is said that all people are forbidden to become Buddhas. If it is not allowed, what s the point of learning Buddhism? No one will study Buddhism! If that is the case, we shall be content with being sentient beings since we are not going to be Buddhas in any case and since we are to achieve nothing.

In fact there have been many Buddhas during this period. Guru Padmasambhava became a Buddha. Is that right? The Gelupa patriarch/founder Tsong Khapa also became a Buddha. Since they all became Buddhas, we cannot say they were not Buddhas.

The future Buddha is Bodhisattva Maitreya. He will be empowered by Sakyamuni; he will descend to this world at the dawn of the three assemblies under the dragon-flower tree and convert more sentient beings. Let there be no misunderstanding. I have read Surangama Sutra very carefully and know a lot about it. The sutra teaches people to return to one's original nature, which I am not going to dwell on. It also talks a lot about the fifty devils in the nether world.

There is also a discussion on the five aggregates, forms, feelings, perception, volitional activities and consciousness, plus how to practise and how many Bodhisattvas practised accordingly. However, the sutra does not tell us that we are forbidden to become Buddhas during this period. Please keep this point in mind.

Xu: It seems that Surangama Sutra mentions that meat-eating is not allowed. Could you also say a few words about going vegetarian ?

It Is the Mind that Counts, not the Food.

Lu: Let us say a few words about meat-eating. Buddha Sakyamuni was not a vegetarian. How was it? During that period of time, the monks did not cook their own meals. Bowl in hand, they went from place to place begging alms. They ate whatever food they are given. Among the precepts, there was one saying "Don t cook!". If you don t cook, you have to eat whatever you get from alms-begging. Among the top ten disciples, some became very fat because they had very rich food. But Kasyapa was very thin, because he was ascetic and often begged alms from poor people. Since Sakyamuni did not cook his own meals, it was not possible for him to be a vegetarian. Meat-eating was a problem/thorn in China’s Buddhism. Emperor Liang Wu Di set the rule. About one thousand and four hundred years ago, he issued an imperial edict saying that all monks were to abstain from meat-eating. Before that, monks in China were also meat-eating, not vegetarians. So being vegetarian was a rule laid down by Emperor Liang Wu Di, not by Buddha Sakyamuni. Meat-eating or not, Sakyamuni and his top ten disciples and five hundred arahats all achieved realization. The question, then, is not the food; it is the mind/heart that counts.

Xu: We might have got some understanding occasionally. We did not live during the times of Sakyamuni. We tend to believe that many of the principles and precepts were handed down from Sakyamuni. In fact they were not!

Tai: I have another question, though. Many people say, " I shall live decently this life time, never stealing, no robbing, no adultery. I shall do everything dutifully. I will do good deeds. I will do whatever I am supposed to do. Why should I try to become a Buddha? What s the point of sitting on a lotus flower as a Buddha? When a person often thinks along those lines, life is very monotonous...."

Xu: That s how you (pointing to Tai) feel.

Tai: This is my own opinion. Someone said, "I shall live a good life during this life time. Never mind the next transmigration! It wouldn t matter too much if I should become a dog, a cat, a pig....or even a pig s dung! It s all due to may own karma! Why should I work hard to become a Buddha?"

Practise to Relieve Your Sufferings.

Lu: As a matter of fact, laymen in this world know very little about the world of Buddhas. It is only natural for them to think that there is no point for them to go to the Western Paradise. The Paradise above has no girl friends for me. I will be very unhappy living up there!

Xu: (Laughing) The Grand Master has taken those words out your mouth (pointing to Tai)!

Tai: And there aren’t any films to see in the Paradise. And I like watching films most!

Lu: You are quite right. Cultivators and laymen are in different realms. In becoming a Buddha, you are reducing your desires and also reducing your worries. As you know, laymen have many worries; worries bring you a lot of sufferings. The only way to get rid of worries and sufferings is to practise Buddhism! Many people say, "I am very happy! I feel very comfortable after a drink! I feeling very happy being together with my girl friend. I even have some extramarital relations - very exciting when it is done surreptitiously!" If you calm down and think carefully, however, it only brings you more worries and more sufferings. If you go still further in your analysis, you will find those misconducts are the very source of worries and sufferings. The laymen often say that drinking makes one happy. But drinking is harmful to one s health. Drinking often causes delay in work. Over drinking sometimes makes one out of senses. Many bad things are done after too much drinking. Many people say, "All my life, I do good deeds and pay homage to the Buddha. Why should I study Buddhism. I am okay as long as my heart is in the right place". Everyone is saying, "I am all right as long as I have my heart in the right place". Let me ask you, "Are you really kind-hearted?" How many sentient beings do indeed have their hearts in the right place? Someone said, "I am all right if I do good all my life". If he really did good all his life, he would become a Buddha. That is, he had been practising Buddhism. He had been practising without being asked. In fact sentient beings did not put their hearts in the right place even though they say they did. There are still dirty thoughts in their mind. They are striving for fame and wealth every day. They are still trying to harm other people. They are still thinking of....you know what! Have they really been kind-hearted for any period of time? They mouth fine words! Buddhism can teach you how to put those fine words into practice. Only when you are practising Buddhism, you are cultivating yourself. Even if you don t want to become a Buddha, you are still practising! Nobody is kidnapping and dragging you to the Western Paradise! Transmigration among the six forms of existence is natural; it is reflected in your mind. This does not mean that you can go to the Western Paradise if you want to. You will naturally go there even if you don t want to. There you get perfect peace of mind, relaxed and comfortable life, and healthy body and mind. In fact, there isn t much worry, more happiness - a balance in body and in mind. Is that right?

Xu: Probably I won t have a chance to experiment that.

Tai: Here are some other questions. I cherish the memory of my childhood. I was very happy then. Every day I was in the mountains and the brooks, in the grass, flowers and butterflies, feeling very happy. The more I grew up, the more worries and distresses. I had to wander from place to place to make a living. I was quite fed up. But one of those days, we all shall die; no one can escape from death. Suppose I live to be eighty; when I die and go to the Western Paradise, am I an eighty-year old or a new-born baby?

Lu: According to the Buddha s teachings and my own experience, I can tell you this. When we go into parinirvana, which means "when we die" in laymen’s terms, you look as old (or as young) as you feel when you die.

Tai: I am always feeling as young as in the primary school!

Lu: That s good. You ll be forever care-free!

Tai: But they will tell me that I am too naive!

Lu: They won't. The heart of a newborn baby is the best of all! In the Taoist teachings, Lao Zi encouraged people to "return to their original state". Newborn babies are pure and most natural - they cry when there is pain and smile when feeling good. They are in a responsive state to the surroundings, which is the purest period in one s life. Men get polluted while growing from childhood to adulthood. Grown-ups are completely polluted by all kinds of environment. By then they become "experienced". In fact, "experienced" is an euphemism; the more appropriate word is "crafty". The older we are, the more crafty we become. This is very complex. If you can keep your heart of a newborn baby, it is the best state of mind - clean and pure, care-free and worry-free.

Tai: But when we have practised to a certain point, we tend to start wondering like this, what do I practise this Dharma for? Why does he behave like that? Why does he (not one of our fellow disciples) try to frame you up? Why is he so ill-mannered? Then a kind of anger and hatred arises, which in turn gives rise to a feeling that sentient beings are so disgusting. By then I don t know what I am practising for. Because the more we practise, the more compassionate we should become, while for me, the more I practise, the more angry at evils I become and the stronger I feel that those bad people should go to Hell! Then I would suddenly realize that I have committed sins in my thought!

Cultivate Unlimited Broad-mindedness.

Lu: What we need here is to "do exactly the opposite". In learning the Buddhist Dharma, we have to be doing exactly the opposite. The Dharma teaches us kind-heartedness, compassion, happiness and charity. To be kind-hearted is to give sentient beings pleasure/happiness. To be compassionate is to eradicate the sufferings of sentient beings. To be happy means to be glad to do all this. Charity here means to be able to "let everything go".

These requirements are very important. You say you are angry or even hate those sentient beings. That shows you not yet broad-minded enough. We need unlimited broad-mindedness to convert sentient beings. To be happy is very important - to be always in a happy state of mind. If you look at sentient beings that way, it is natural that they are disgusting. Because they seem to be doing all sorts of wrong things. They are engaged in dirty dealings, under-hand dealings, to make things difficult for other people. In fact, we should behave this way, since they are sentient beings, we should sympathize with them.

Since you have not realized and not enlightened, you are still sentient beings. So you have my sympathy. You must be sympathetic with them all the more. I see people of this kind too. Many of my disciples take advantage of me - they cheat the Grand Master! So this master of yours has to be taken advantage of by his students! Sometimes those disciples tell me lies. It is not the case that I don t realize that they are lying. I like to be cheated by them. I deliberately choose to be cheated while knowing well what is going on. Why? Well, to make them happy! Sometimes we tend to think that since they are sentient beings they ought to be doing wrong things. Since they are not yet enlightened, not Buddhas or Bodhisattvas, what good deeds do you expect them to do? So they deserve our sympathy and our patient instructions.

We often see sentient beings fighting against one another, slaughtering one another, and doing all kinds of dirty things and thinking of all kinds of dirty thoughts. You have to be sympathetic with them, kind and compassionate to them, teach them the truth and put them on the road leading to Buddhahood. This is what you are supposed to do. Please do not say to them, "My God! You are not doing the right things. I hate you! I don't like you! I ll send you to Hell!" In that case you are a King of Hell, not a Buddha! All believers and practitioners should be kind and compassionate and treat sentient beings as equals.

Tai: But, you see, it is....

Lu: Easier said than done, right? In the process of our cultivation, there are many occasions on which we deliberately do the opposite to what we desire. In learning the Four Unlimitedness of Mind, we make ourselves infinitely broad-minded so as to treat all sentient beings as equals. Then there will no longer any bad people to our mind, only good people, including those who try to keep us down. Why do we regard them as good people? Because they are sentient beings. It is only natural for them to do bad things before we have educated them well enough. Do you see the point now?

Tai: Talking about converting sentient beings, there are so many of them! People like us have taken refuge, but there are so many more who haven t! Don't you feel a little sad, Grand Master, that they haven t come to you for practice?

Convert Sentient Beings with a Cool Heart

Lu: Many practitioners with great achievement feel sad about the fact that few people understand their desire to convert sentient beings. For me, I have cultivated to the realm where I convert sentient beings with a "cool heart". What does that mean? It means that I do my best to help sentient beings, without any expectation about the final achievement. Do you see my point? We should not always wonder why all sentient beings have not come to our True Buddha School for conversion or why they do not like our True Buddha School. We should do our utmost to promote their understanding of our cause, so that they may get converted little by little.

We carry on our work cheerfully every day and we have to be content with what we can do. Although some day you may hear some rumours about our True Buddha School and quit, we should not feel too sad about that because it is all due to certain karmic relationships. However, we will try our best to bring you back. You quit because you are misinformed by rumours and slanderous remarks. It is a great pity that your belief has weakened. It does not matter much since it has to be that way. Never mind - we will do our best to get you back for we believe that our True Buddha Tantric practice is very good indeed.

Xu: This is great! The number of disciples in the True Buddha School is shocking, but it is still growing daily. We have been to many places and know that they are everywhere in the world. In Singapore, for example, prisoners with death sentences had practised the True Buddha Tantric Dharma and left behind sariras after their cremation. This news...

Tai: Shock the whole world.

Xu: Right. Grand Master, would you say a few words about disciples from different places? How are we in Taiwan like compared with those in Singapore and Malaysia? What are they like?

Disciples from Different Places Have Their Own Features

Lu: Disciples in Taiwan are very warm-hearted. Generally speaking, disciples from Southeast Asia are warm-hearted. Taiwan is my native place, for which I harbour some very special feeling and nostalgia. Many people I love and care for are here. Many disciples would like to come back to Taiwan when they are old like falling leaves settling on the roots.

Warm-hearted as they are, many of the disciples from Taiwan, influenced by the general mood of society, strive for fame and profit, showing traces of sentient beings before becoming Buddhas. I hope that they will double their efforts in practising diligently.

What about Hong Kong? Hong Kong is complicated in a state of anarchism. People there are very interested in our True Buddha School and there are disciples too. They cannot communicate with Grand Master in speech, only in written form. They enjoy other advantages, being converted by books. Those disciples are originally from Guangdong Province. They are warm, sincere, hardworking and diligent in their cultivation.

Singapore is dominated by Chinese, who count for a three-quarter of the total population. In some places the majority are Chinese. They can speak Mandarin, Taiwan dialect, and English. There are many disciples there who practise very hard. Malaysia is also multi-national, including Chinese nationals, who speak the Chinese language.

In short, there are disciples of ours in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. Disciples in Indonesia are rich; those in Malaysia are not well-off; those in Hong Kong and Taiwan are well-to-do. Singapore is a clean country, where people have a strong sense of environmental protection.

What about western countries? Due to communication problems both in speech and in writing, I have not converted as many disciples as I had liked. There have been many Westerners, who have taken refuge in me, but they bear no comparison with orientals in number. Disciples from Australia, America and Canada, and also Europe, are well-educated; many of them are Ph.Ds, M.As and they are doing translation work. There are two hundred thousand disciples in mainland China, who have taken refuge by correspondence.

They are also very serious with their practice. Religion is deep-rooted in people’s minds. Spiritual sustenance is something everybody needs. On the surface, the Cultural Revolution has done away with religion. In fact, it has not! The seeds are still in people s minds. They still crave for spiritual cultivation. The main land will be a good "market" for religion in future (laughter).

Xu: I practise at home, all by myself, almost in seclusion, separated from other chapters or fellow disciples. Whenever I come into contact with them, things become quite tedious and troublesome. It is not the case that once a person has taken refuge in the Grand Master and thus has a belief, he is at once broad-minded. You feel very sad when you come into contact with some believers. It seems that there are so many little groups and sects within the religious community, criticizing one another for this and that. Grand Master, do you feel sometimes that you can do nothing about this either?

Drop All Attachment and Treasure the Chance

Lu: You are quite right there. In my previous Dharma talks, I said that the most difficult thing in people s life is to "Ascend to Heaven". In fact, this means that it is most difficult to practise Buddhism. The second greatest difficulty is to "earn money". You may think that earning money is easy, but in fact it is very difficult for most people. Many people don’t make a penny though they have worked like hell all their life. The third greatest difficulty is to conduct/integrate oneself in society. This is a problem in social relations. Even the best friends may fall out with one another. I have seen old friends of twenty, thirty, forty or even fifty years’ standing fell out with each other. Even husbands and wives can break up. This is very difficult indeed. In a big group/organisation like ours with so many disciples, it is not surprising if there are a few who give up practice half way. They give up not because their master/Root Guru is no good or the True Buddha Tantric Dharma is no good, but because they have quarreled with some people or cannot get on with some people in the temple. It is a great pity that they stop practising just for that! So we practitioners must be very broad-minded. If you are narrow-minded, you may split with others because of some discord and you may even stop practising because you fail to get fame from the split. Isn t that a pity? I hope that all disciples of our True Buddha School treasure this wonderful karmic relationship and let go our own opinion and attachment so that we can live in harmony. Otherwise it is a pity that you cannot go on practising simply because of your own opinion against somebody.

Tai: Our cultivators should be broad-minded.

Xu: And we should treasure this karmic relationship and value this fortunate retribution.

Tai: I am not magnanimous enough, and I ll go home and make some self-criticism.

Xu: Our time is running short and I’m afraid we cannot go on with our discussion.

Tai: I’m moved to tears!

Xu: It is very touching indeed! Our Living Buddha Liansheng, our Root Guru, our Vajra Master, our Grand Master, Our Buddha of Brightness and Independence, honoured us with his presence in our studio of "Lian Sheng Broadcasting Station". All our staff members and us chairpersons are greatly honoured and moved.

Lu: Don’t say that, please. Thanks, everyone!

Tai: It’s great prestige to be sitting close to our Grand Master today and talking face to face like this. Your presence has probably eradicated all my negative karma!

Xu: It’s getting late now. No more talking to you (pointing to Tai). Finally, we request the Grand Master to give our audience his blessing.

Lu: All right. I wish all of you good health and high spirits. I hope everyone of you make up your mind to practise and get great achievement in your cultivation!

Om Mani Padmi Hum.

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